![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
My Take on the Relationship Tangle
For those interested in The Ongoing Saga (and especially for those of us who are part of it), I submit the following points:
Point 1: We all love each other. The Sanctuary crew loves the Nashville crew, and vice versa. We don't want to lose each other. We are family.
Point 2: We are a stubborn lot, and we're a lot prouder than we'd like to admit to being. That goes for all of us, Sanctuary and Nashville alike. None of us want to admit to having made a mistake, and none of us wants to back down once we feel that we are in the right. We will let stubborn pride blind us to anything that we do not agree with, and never realize that refusing to give an inch is losing us all that we hold dear.
Point 3: If we don't find a way to sit down calmly and talk this out together, as a family, then we will lose each other. It's that simple. Things have been ignored or been being shoved aside for too long now for us to do so any longer. This is no longer a relationship issue, it is a family problem, and we must find a way to fix it as a family. Where this will be held, I don't know, but I do know that it needs to be soon. My preference would be for within the month, so that the emotions don't have more oppurtunity to stew and solidify than they already have.
Point 4: We need a mediator, folks. I know that several of you would like to keep this private; strictly a discussion among those involved in the romantic realtionships. Well, you tried that and it blew up in your faces. Not only did it blow up in your faces, it blew up all over those of us who weren't present for the discussion. I hereby repeat myself: This is no longer a relationship issue, it is a family problem, and we must find a way to fix it as a family. We need someone to keep this from degenerating into a lot of yelling and very little discussion.
I further submit my take on the problems themselves:
Point A: L is not stupid, nor is he unobservant. He talks and interacts with Bear-Cub and Puppy all the time, and Bear-Cub at least knows the full relationship structure between Sanctuary and Nashville. I understand putting one's children first, but there is doing that, and then there is overdoing it. If you are going to be poly, your children are going to find out about it. This is inevitable. Trying to pretend that you are just friends, and not even very close friends at that whenever L is around is pointless, and puts severe strain on the relationship and those who are in it.
Point B: More time needs to be spent together, and not just at any one place. Finances and job schedule have interfered with this in the past, and will probably continue to do so in the future. That, and if![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
catchild and Phooka go someplace, Phooka needs to have somewhere that she run around without hurting herself. She can reach up to breast height on me, she climbs, and she puts everything that she can grab directly into her mouth. Once we have the finaces to visit on a frequent basis, maybe outings to parks and such in the Nashville/Columbia/etc. area? I honestly don't know how easy or convient it would be for you to baby proof your living room. We could bring a gate with us easily enough to block off baby access into the kitchen. Nightbreed and his lady's house is another good place for family gatherings, especially since we'd all like to spend more time with them as well. With Ebon no longer working six days a week, the only current hinderances to us coming up there more often are finances and Phooka safety.
Point C: Blood-family and non-blood family. This one's a biggie. You didn't really want to deal with potential fallout from us being around your blood-relatives when they came to visit you, andcatchild didn't want to deal with her stepdad being snide about you and Ebon spending time together when he was here. For all of us: Either our family of origin will accept us and love us for who we are, or they will not. Pretending to be someone that you are not is very rarely, if ever, a good idea. All it does is delay the moment when your blood-family finds out what you have been working so dilegently to hide from them. And the longer you have been trying to keep them from finding out, the stronger the reaction will be. In my viewpoint, a lie of omission is still a lie. If you have to pretend whn they're over, then you're lying to yourself and to them about how and what you are. You don't have to spell everything out for them, just be yourself and let them figure it out for themselves. They might just surprise you by not going ballastic about it. They might even be pretending to be someone that they're not to avoid upseting *you*.
Point D: The bonfire mess. I wan't there for any of it, so all I have to go on is what I've been told and what I've seenreana post about in her comment response to catchild. Both sides say that the other wasn't noticing the pain that they were causing, and both sides say that the other was yelling or accusing or something else along those lines. As I was not there, the only conclusion that I can draw was that everyone probably did a little of everything, and memory and perspective is distorting the rest. Honestly, from what I've heard, that whole fiasco should be like a neon sign to all involved, screaming in lurid glory "You need a mediator!"
Point E: Relationships, seperation illness, and related subjects. I love Celtic knotwork, but this is going just a touch to far. You all need to stabilize existing relationships before you go looking for another. Otherwise, it's all just going to collapse on you all over again. Seperation illness. I'm not really sure what to say on this one. I belive both of you when you say that you cannot be seperated for more than six hours without becoming violently ill. However, in all seriousness and with no sarcasm intended, I really hope that neither of you have to go on an extended business trip. That, and such a restriction all but guaruntees that your blood-family will find out about J. So will L. What is so different about your relationship with J that you are willing to be this open about it, when you will not permit Ebon (indeed, any of us) the same openess?
Final: We will either work through this, or it will crash and burn around us. We will all need to make compromises, including ones that we'd probably rather not make. We all need to change how we act and react. This will not work if any one side tries to make it work all by themselves. We all have to want it to work, and be willing to put the time and effort into making it work. In any case, I'm not going to let it end like this.
Congratulations. The mouse found her backbone, and it has spikes on it.
Point 1: We all love each other. The Sanctuary crew loves the Nashville crew, and vice versa. We don't want to lose each other. We are family.
Point 2: We are a stubborn lot, and we're a lot prouder than we'd like to admit to being. That goes for all of us, Sanctuary and Nashville alike. None of us want to admit to having made a mistake, and none of us wants to back down once we feel that we are in the right. We will let stubborn pride blind us to anything that we do not agree with, and never realize that refusing to give an inch is losing us all that we hold dear.
Point 3: If we don't find a way to sit down calmly and talk this out together, as a family, then we will lose each other. It's that simple. Things have been ignored or been being shoved aside for too long now for us to do so any longer. This is no longer a relationship issue, it is a family problem, and we must find a way to fix it as a family. Where this will be held, I don't know, but I do know that it needs to be soon. My preference would be for within the month, so that the emotions don't have more oppurtunity to stew and solidify than they already have.
Point 4: We need a mediator, folks. I know that several of you would like to keep this private; strictly a discussion among those involved in the romantic realtionships. Well, you tried that and it blew up in your faces. Not only did it blow up in your faces, it blew up all over those of us who weren't present for the discussion. I hereby repeat myself: This is no longer a relationship issue, it is a family problem, and we must find a way to fix it as a family. We need someone to keep this from degenerating into a lot of yelling and very little discussion.
I further submit my take on the problems themselves:
Point A: L is not stupid, nor is he unobservant. He talks and interacts with Bear-Cub and Puppy all the time, and Bear-Cub at least knows the full relationship structure between Sanctuary and Nashville. I understand putting one's children first, but there is doing that, and then there is overdoing it. If you are going to be poly, your children are going to find out about it. This is inevitable. Trying to pretend that you are just friends, and not even very close friends at that whenever L is around is pointless, and puts severe strain on the relationship and those who are in it.
Point B: More time needs to be spent together, and not just at any one place. Finances and job schedule have interfered with this in the past, and will probably continue to do so in the future. That, and if
catchild and Phooka go someplace, Phooka needs to have somewhere that she run around without hurting herself. She can reach up to breast height on me, she climbs, and she puts everything that she can grab directly into her mouth. Once we have the finaces to visit on a frequent basis, maybe outings to parks and such in the Nashville/Columbia/etc. area? I honestly don't know how easy or convient it would be for you to baby proof your living room. We could bring a gate with us easily enough to block off baby access into the kitchen. Nightbreed and his lady's house is another good place for family gatherings, especially since we'd all like to spend more time with them as well. With Ebon no longer working six days a week, the only current hinderances to us coming up there more often are finances and Phooka safety.Point C: Blood-family and non-blood family. This one's a biggie. You didn't really want to deal with potential fallout from us being around your blood-relatives when they came to visit you, and
catchild didn't want to deal with her stepdad being snide about you and Ebon spending time together when he was here. For all of us: Either our family of origin will accept us and love us for who we are, or they will not. Pretending to be someone that you are not is very rarely, if ever, a good idea. All it does is delay the moment when your blood-family finds out what you have been working so dilegently to hide from them. And the longer you have been trying to keep them from finding out, the stronger the reaction will be. In my viewpoint, a lie of omission is still a lie. If you have to pretend whn they're over, then you're lying to yourself and to them about how and what you are. You don't have to spell everything out for them, just be yourself and let them figure it out for themselves. They might just surprise you by not going ballastic about it. They might even be pretending to be someone that they're not to avoid upseting *you*.Point D: The bonfire mess. I wan't there for any of it, so all I have to go on is what I've been told and what I've seen
reana post about in her comment response to catchild. Both sides say that the other wasn't noticing the pain that they were causing, and both sides say that the other was yelling or accusing or something else along those lines. As I was not there, the only conclusion that I can draw was that everyone probably did a little of everything, and memory and perspective is distorting the rest. Honestly, from what I've heard, that whole fiasco should be like a neon sign to all involved, screaming in lurid glory "You need a mediator!"Point E: Relationships, seperation illness, and related subjects. I love Celtic knotwork, but this is going just a touch to far. You all need to stabilize existing relationships before you go looking for another. Otherwise, it's all just going to collapse on you all over again. Seperation illness. I'm not really sure what to say on this one. I belive both of you when you say that you cannot be seperated for more than six hours without becoming violently ill. However, in all seriousness and with no sarcasm intended, I really hope that neither of you have to go on an extended business trip. That, and such a restriction all but guaruntees that your blood-family will find out about J. So will L. What is so different about your relationship with J that you are willing to be this open about it, when you will not permit Ebon (indeed, any of us) the same openess?
Final: We will either work through this, or it will crash and burn around us. We will all need to make compromises, including ones that we'd probably rather not make. We all need to change how we act and react. This will not work if any one side tries to make it work all by themselves. We all have to want it to work, and be willing to put the time and effort into making it work. In any case, I'm not going to let it end like this.
Congratulations. The mouse found her backbone, and it has spikes on it.
no subject
Here's a starter. You agree not to push on them your preferences regarding openness/truthfulness, and they agree to abide by rationally achieved conclusions on the topic, once it has been discussed solely for this practical (i.e. not theoretical) purpose. You're a stubborn lot, and the stubbornness you collectively bear on this vital point is not something that will help the family grow back together. To re-word: don't talk about it until everyone's agreed to abide by a common decision. And if that'll never happen, then resign yourself to 'agreeing to disagree,' and don't harp on the issue. Because, and I quote, "refusing to give an inch is losing us all that we hold dear."
Any other issues can be treated much the same. Drop it, and don't pick it up until you remember what's important.
I think everyone needs to leave the computer, pick up the phone, and call someone just to say "I'm sorry if I hurt you, and I miss you."
Go ahead, do it. Sounds like a big pride-y pill to swallow, sounds cheesy, and yet IT WORKS. Do you want family enough that you'll be the first to reach out, or is it really not that important to you? (collective-you, not omi-you)
no subject
hmm. maybe i'm kamikaze joy.. volunteering to run out into the middle of a mine field. what am i thinking? oh yeah, it's that whole caring about my friends thing. oy vey!
hugs
i've tried calling so has ebon. two weeks later i got a call back. we seem to not be able to get through. in 3 weeks i've gotten through to the land line twice, once to a person other than reanna once to an answering machine. neither call was returned. between us ebon and i have left 7 messages on her cell phone i got a call back a few days ago. she said she'd call ebon the next day. the call never came. when he called her monday she wouldn't talk to him because she was upset at my post. we haven't gotten through again since.
Go ahead, do it. Sounds like a big pride-y pill to swallow, sounds cheesy, and yet IT WORKS. Do you want family enough that you'll be the first to reach out, or is it really not that important to you? (collective-you, not omi-you)
i don't have any pride anymore. if groveling would work i'd do it. i won't allow J near me because of his willingness to state things violently and his refuseal to allow ebon a way to leave without calling names. if he saw the wrongness of those actions i would allow him a second chance near me but according to reanna he won't apologize because he did nothing wrong.
no subject
of course, the last time i tried to be a mediator, i was accused of beating one of the participants. not sure when a picnic table became a participant in the discussion, but that's okay. long story, that one. but amusing.
luvluvs to one and all
T
no subject
no subject
Yes, I do expect L to find out relatively soon. However, L does not have the maturity to understand that there are people who do not need to hear about my personal life without jeopardizing it. Remember the reason for the move from H-ville? And the only place I could run to would be to TX. As his mother, I have the right to make certain decisions, right or wrong, dealing with this. I haven't changed them and I certainly do not like being pushed into making my personal life public consumption.
Reply to Point B:
Have I ever been ASKED about child-proofing my house? Now that it's been mentioned, I'm working on it.
Reply to Point C:
Blood family. Yes. I love my blood family. They were/are also judgemental as hell. I don't believe in courting trouble or giving members of my (very old-fashioned) family heart attacks. If they ask a question, then I will answer it. I will not flaunt something that will hurt them, but I won't lie about it. And I had already started laying the groundwork for catchild to meet my sister at a future date after I made relatively sure that she wouldn't immediately lash out at something she doesn't understand. I also don't believe in exposing people I care about to unwarranted attack, especially when it's due to ignorance.
Reply to Point D:
Yes, the bonfire mess was nasty. A mediator would be a good idea. But cutting out one or more parties that were present isn't going to work. Like it or not, it happened the way it happened and it will take everyone to work it out. I will not be put in the middle between two people I love or cut off from someone I love because another party doesn't like something that happened. If this is a family problem, then deal with it as such and stop throwing ultimatums around. Ultimatums generally tend to get an unpleasant response from me.
Reply to Point E:
Do you think I haven't thought about this? Hell, I wasn't looking for a damn thing when it got dropped into my lap. But this is the kind of thing that, like cancer, it'll kill you if you don't pay attention. I want to stabilize a lot of things. Being on rocky ground with ebon anyway, I was and had been working on it for a while. Hell, I'm still working on it. It's doubly difficult now, but I can try. As for the blood family, yes, they're going to eventually find out anyway. There's still a difference between flaunting your differences and hurting the people that raised you in the process deliberately and being quiet about it out of respect for their personal beliefs. Again, I'm not going to lie. But I won't give my grandmother who has a pacemaker or my grandfather who has had four heart attacks reason to wonder why they raised me badly. If they lived that long. As for permitting someone else the same openness, see the comment about ignorance in Reply to Point A. That's my blood family. Really. I don't like exposing any of the people I care about to the judgemental bullshit I've dealt with my entire life.
Reply to Final:
Yes, we need to work together on this. All of us. Compromises can be made, but they have to be made on ALL sides.
Yes, Omi, you found your backbone and you've made some very good points.
I congratulate you for it.
As for some of the other comments:
I've tried to relate to catchild that I love her and the kids very much. But it's not going to do much good to call and talk when I'm so angry that I'm likely to do more harm than good. I'm just as upset and angry, maybe more so, as everyone else.
Now I'm being told that someone who I care about very much and am bonded to cannot step on the property after being told that everyone actively likes him. He has to apologize for defending me to someone who should have known better in the first place. Now, everyone is willing to overlook that night and discuss what's going on except catchild. It feels (and this is perception here, at least in part) like someone is actively trying to separate me from someone that is seen as interfering with what's left of my relationship with ebon. Who will also defend me from anyone or anything.
Now, I think I need another really hot shower to calm the hell down again.
The mouse doesn't need a backbone ...........
The mouse doesn't need a backbone because Dee is pissed it got so far. YOU HAVE YOUR MEDIATOR. Because all of you know I will not pull punches and I will not have my family torn apart by petty bickering. I will not hesitate to tell any party to sit own and shut up. So get ready. This Sunday come hell or highwater I will be coming. Anyone wanna argue? I suggest both sides make children plans.
no subject
no subject
First of all I was very hurt last night upon hearing from Catchild. Having been a long time friend of the family I was greatly upset to learn that my tactics would not be good for Ebon and might push him over the edge. I was also upset to learn that even though myself, titiania, and louis would all be there as impartial people, there would not be enough people who would react fast enough to cool things down. I was informed that even thought the root of the problem is between 4 people that we could not deal with this alone, the entire family would need to be present because it concerns them. I was also iformed that having the meeting on neutral ground means that Catchild could walk away if she did not like what she was hearing.
I was welcomed to be there for this but informed my trip was not necissary. So to even start this mediation out there would be minus one level headed person.
Let me take this point by point.
One. Even though my tactics can be harsh they wil only be harsh if it is called for. I have known Ebon for a long time and I know his limitations. I also know my limitations. I have no fear of being able to stop Ebon from going on a killing rage.
Two. Louis does court Cathild. Even though Louis is very level headed I think that on its own makes him as a mediator a bit biased. I have seen Louis's reactions to Catchild being hurt and that type of reaction cannot be over come when put into a position where Catchild's feelings will be hurt, yes they will be especially since they are already. I truely think that anyone stepping back from the situation would see that.
Three. Catchild is afraid of J. I can understand this, J is a big guy. However I do think the fear of Catchild being hit by J is unfounded. Catchild's words were that if J hit her then nothing would stop
Ebon from killing him. That I agree on but having 2 more adults and 2 more children in the home would not stop that either. Plus if J lost his temper enough to hit someone I'm sure it would be Ebon, not Catchild and I am also sure that if he chose to do so he would be in for a whale of a fight from me before he even got to Ebon. Let's remember folks. Both of my parents were well over 300 pounds and like to beat me. When I was a teenager I learned to fight back. If anyone in the group could physically take J down it would be me.
Four. Even though the loss of friendship does involve the entire family the root of the problem is between 4 people. Without the root being delt with nothing else matters. What you told me Catchild is that with J there you would need more people to defend you. Somehow that seems to translate (remember connections Cat, I know what is going on) into having more people to attack. I know what you want is for Reana to say she was all wrong and Ebon was all right because that is what you truely beleive. That will not happen and you know that it will not. Perceptions are different. You refuse to see the opposite side of the coin. The fact is both sides remember the boiling pont event very differently, nothing will change that. The difference is in how you can come to terms with it.
part 2
OK last points. Catchild, you said that you thought you should be able to expect to be able to talk to a mate several times a week and be able to see them at least twice a month. Let me ask, has Reana ever become your mate? Are you and Ebon the same person? While I agree that mates should defend each other you have seemed to master the extreem of this. From what I am hearing you are saying that Ebon can do no wrong. Funny, because I kinda thought he was trapped in human flesh which is very faulable. I heard excuse after excuse last night about your demands and what you would need to feel safe and why this meeting just isnt going to work. So in my oppinion it has come to this. Either you, Ebon and Louis agree that you can come with me on Sunday to meet with Reana and J or you can't. It is that simple. I've heard enough ultimatums being thrown, now, this is mine. Since I was told that I was not trusted last night I'm sure you will not mind that if you cannot see your way clear to truely put all effort into making this meeting happen then I'm sure you will not mind not seeing me around Sanctuary. This is your last chance Catchild, I'm giving you the second chance. It is in your court now. You are the one that made this into something about you and not something between Ebon and Reana. So now you can either buck it up and give an honest effort or you can loose two friends for the price of one.
I'm sorry because I know this is hurtful to you and I wish I saw another way to do it but I cannot. I know that you may have a problem seeing it from what I write now but I do love you and this does not mean that I am against you in anyway. If I didnt love you, it wouldnt hurt and I could simply walk away.
With all of my heart,
Dee
no subject
(drat this lack of teleporter...)
no subject
*hugs* When would a good time to call you be, BTW? Calming influences and a sensible shoulder are good things right now, especially for
no subject
And hey, I wouldn't offer if I didn't feel it needful - despite the risk of a number of people disliking me after mediating.
Dunno when I'll be able to make it down there. It's always time or money. Gotta work on that.
no subject